The Two Generals’ Problem

  • нийтэлсэн 6 өдрийн өмнө

    Tom Scott

    Үргэлжлэх хугацаа: 8:26

    Time to tell a story about idempotency, computer science, and the Night of the Multiple Orders. • Sponsored by Dashlane -try 30 days for free at: www.dashlane.com/tomscott
    MORE BASICS: mnclip.info/playlist/PL96C35uN7xGLLeET0dOWaKHkAlPsrkcha
    Written by Sean M Elliott and Tom Scott
    Directed by Tomek
    Graphics by Mooviemakers www.mooviemakers.co.uk/
    Audio mix by Haerther Productions haerther.net/
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    tom scott  tomscott  the basics  computer science  two generals problem  two generals' problem  the two generals problem  idempotency  idempotency key  idempotency token  idempotence  

Tom Scott
Tom Scott

Yes, I had help with the graphics for this series. There's no way I'd have animated that myself! On that note, thanks to Dashlane for sponsoring and helping me hire an animator: their free trial link is https://www.dashlane.com/tomscott

24 өдрийн өмнө
Liberals Get the Bullet Too
Liberals Get the Bullet Too

Why don't the two generals have the messengers meet in the middle, and each return with confirmation of having met? This should immediately double the survivability of any particular messenger - they're only travelling half the hostile distance. Further, you could have a second set of messengers in an intermediate space to act as a witness or a redundancy.

15 цагийн өмнө
steve d
steve d

Doesn"t mention food delivery company by name, shows headline with delivery company's name...

Өдрийн өмнө
Andrew F
Andrew F

How is it unsolvable? Wouldn't you just need a maximum of two confirmations sent in order after the original message? If you get at least one confirmation in the correct order after the original message then you know both parties received the original, right? What am I not understanding here?

2 өдрийн өмнө
john smith
john smith

who would put the castle in the valley but a computer tech

2 өдрийн өмнө
ERMAN ATES
ERMAN ATES

It was very well put. Animations were only fabulous. Thanks

2 өдрийн өмнө
Sebastian Nielsen
Sebastian Nielsen

There is actually a way to "solve" this problem, and that is continually send messages. They could contain a number, my message number, and the last message number I saw from you. Of course they must be encrypted and end2end verified. Continuially send these messages, lets say with 10 minutes apart. Stop sending messages 1 hour before the attack. If you stop receiving messages, count 1 for each missed message, Reset counter if you receive a message. If count exceeds 6, attack. If the number "I last saw message number X" is more than 6 - (count), attack. Regardless on how the adversiary capture the messages, it will result in a successful attack. HINT: This is how alarm system works to prevent jamming of wireless signals.

5 цагийн өмнө
Black Light
Black Light

youtube recommended, wtf? Why? I neither understand computer logics or having problems with my food arriving.

5 цагийн өмнө
Alexander Cavrich
Alexander Cavrich

I

7 цагийн өмнө
less kiss
less kiss

err, Works fine for me... sounds like user error....

5 цагийн өмнө
Drake H.
Drake H.

Wouldn't you be able to include a signal response request in the initial message (talking about the two generals problem) - like general a gives a time and requests that general b light a large fire in a visible area to confirm receipt and agreement of the message.

9 цагийн өмнө
[TRCZ] NoidEXE
[TRCZ] NoidEXE

4:55 but how can you make the same order three times and the server not notice it's the same order? I mean can't you use a pseudo random number generator or something? You only get the next random number if you receive a confirmation or cancel the order. That way if the server gets the same random number for the same client it can tell it's the same order. I'm just a game designer so maybe it's harder than this but I can't think of why it wouldn't work.

10 цагийн өмнө
less kiss
less kiss

What if someone wanted to do the same order for multiple people. A certain restaurant verifies double orders

5 цагийн өмнө
Mike Pratt
Mike Pratt

Suggestion for dinner next time - Salmon in a dishwasher..?

11 цагийн өмнө
Alexi Hickin
Alexi Hickin

I work for deliveroo and I remember this evening, i delivered Wagamamas to a house who had already received their order. I had to wait with them while they got a refund, long story short I got 50 quids worth of Wagamamas for free.

11 цагийн өмнө
Alexi Hickin
Alexi Hickin

I earn like 20 quid an hour for deliveroo it’s not bad 😂

11 цагийн өмнө
Raymon Crane
Raymon Crane

Those look like HP 7933/7935 disk drives in back. Used to fix those back in the day.

12 цагийн өмнө
roasted pancakes
roasted pancakes

Just send two million messengers with a paper each towards the blue army. The paper should have a time to attack and a check mark at the bottom of the page. Make the blue army check every single paper and send all of the messengers back. Then both armies will have a reasonable guarantee that each army got the message. Alternatively, reroute one of the armies to meet the other army and have a combined attack with both armies.

13 цагийн өмнө
TelFiRE
TelFiRE

There’s nothing unethical about ordering food. I work for Grubhub. Yes there are things I would rather have different, but wouldn’t at their job? By not ordering food all you’re doing is denying me money and making my job harder

13 цагийн өмнө
TelFiRE
TelFiRE

And frankly the only unethical think you’re is to frame this is a question of ethics. Businesses are allowed to have different policies and people are allowed to agree or disagree on those policies without it being a matter of ethics. If you don’t want to work there you don’t have to

13 цагийн өмнө
Simon Johnson
Simon Johnson

It's not "unsolvable", the word is "insuperable - Pedant

14 цагийн өмнө
Ask to seduce Miss
Ask to seduce Miss

knows if A made it and A knows B made it. Both army’s attack. Solved. I know this wouldn’t work in computers but it is a solution if it were just a puzzle

12 цагийн өмнө
invisiblebears
invisiblebears

Why couldn't they just continually send back messengers with confirmation until the proposed time and if one of the messengers didn't show up Abort or in the case of a computer disconnect or and endhandshake?

14 цагийн өмнө
Ask to seduce Miss
Ask to seduce Miss

A sends a messenger to b. If it makes it , b sends both that messenger and a new messenger from b to the castle. Messenger B turns back and messenger A continues to a

12 цагийн өмнө
lampree
lampree

why did this video get uploaded 3 times??

16 цагийн өмнө
Robert South
Robert South

Seems like once both generals have received at least one acknowledgement they can just attack since the time hasn't changed.

17 цагийн өмнө
007one
007one

Bitcoin

17 цагийн өмнө
TheTech9
TheTech9

This channel is awsome, and this guy is pleasant voice to listen to. No homo

19 цагийн өмнө
Carl
Carl

Hey dude do you still see dead people? oh nevermind.

20 цагийн өмнө
Jake Wish
Jake Wish

What if someone wanted to do the same order for multiple people. A certain restaurant verifies double orders

22 цагийн өмнө
Stuart Wilson
Stuart Wilson

err, Works fine for me... sounds like user error....

22 цагийн өмнө
Tinka Like AngelOK
Tinka Like AngelOK

Justeat 😂

22 цагийн өмнө
hmmm
hmmm

No plussed how this solves the two generals actual problem. Poorly explained.

22 цагийн өмнө
xirsamoht x
xirsamoht x

Speckled Jim & his friends!

22 цагийн өмнө
Imelda Chandra
Imelda Chandra

I wonder what if like this : Gen A sent message (8 pm) to Gen B Gen B reply (ok. 8 pm) to Gen A is it possible?

Өдрийн өмнө
Imelda Chandra
Imelda Chandra

I wonder what if like this : Gen A sent message (8 pm) to Gen B Gen B reply (ok. 8 pm) to Gen A is it possible? or there is another hindrance?

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Ailsa Ni
Ailsa Ni

ally with the other general, and then assume the message got through.

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Verne Jules
Verne Jules

Tom, I understand that the idempotency token/key can solve the problem of double orders/messages. But how does that solve the Two Generals Problem? Forgive my slow brain.

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Ailsa Ni
Ailsa Ni

So the solution to the two generals problem is to send a third of your army into the dangerous valley, all of them with a message to attack at a certain time with the survivors to

Өдрийн өмнө
Cullenak47
Cullenak47

A sends a messenger to b. If it makes it , b sends both that messenger and a new messenger from b to the castle. Messenger B turns back and messenger A continues to a. B knows if A made it and A knows B made it. Both army’s attack. Solved. I know this wouldn’t work in computers but it is a solution if it were just a puzzle

Өдрийн өмнө
Daniel Newton
Daniel Newton

Have each army send a messenger when they're ready. When the two messengers meet in the middle (taking precautions to avoid getting spotted), each one goes back to their army and says "we're good to go". If the messengers don't make it back, they will assume that they died so can send another, until the two meet and send a return message.

Өдрийн өмнө
Kingsly9802
Kingsly9802

>If you are in computer science and working on a problem that involves potential loss of life, I really hope you aren't watching a series called "The Basics". But they're fun!

Өдрийн өмнө
soSAMuk's UK slot channel
soSAMuk's UK slot channel

Why do kids toys adverts have to say “batteries not included?”

Өдрийн өмнө
TheDeathMongrel
TheDeathMongrel

2 Generals is an interesting conundrum in and of itself but I think it's a poor paradigm for avoiding the processing of repeated messages. In 2 Generals, no one proceeds without an acknowledgment. It's a Schrodinger's Cat problem. You don't know the answer until 8 p.m. when either everyone is at the castle or is still waiting for another acknowledgment. Applying idempotency (which would be against the "strict" rules) to 2 Generals, still wouldn't solve the problem. It would only affirm that additional messages, if any, are the same (attack at 8 p.m.), and only if the messages actually make it. 2 Generals doesn't guarantee message delivery in either direction, so even with idempotency tokens, Army B may still take no action if they don't get their acknowledgment. With the delivery issue, if the additional messages don't make it, it doesn't matter, the other side will respond appropriately to the original message. In delivery, the return acknowledgment goes far beyond the 2 Generals' (receipt of message), as you can get an erroneous message, a success or failure, and is likely not to have an effect on processing if no acknowledgment is sent. In any case, I think the delivery problem and applications of idempotency tokens as you've described, is its own best explanation of what's going on, not 2 Generals, which idempotency can't be used to solve (again strict rules).

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Max Mouse
Max Mouse

General A sends "8pm" General B sends "8pm ack" - General a doesn't attack unless it receives the ack...

Өдрийн өмнө
Aaron
Aaron

General A sends 2 Messengers. Both go to general B to confirm the message was received. Both go to General A but when passing the castle at the exact halfway point one messenger goes back to general b the other goes on to a. They both know the message was received by general b and the acknowledgement got through back to a.

Өдрийн өмнө
Jasmine
Jasmine

An interesting follow up would be the Byzantine general's problem - what if there were multiple generals that could back stab each other?

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1dgram
1dgram

Hey, I'm allowed to watch a series called "The Basics" even if I am working on safety of flight software!

Өдрийн өмнө
1dgram
1dgram

@Jasmine It's one if those words that are pronounced differently in the UK than in the US. You have the correct American pronunciation.

Өдрийн өмнө
Jasmine
Jasmine

Now, can you do one that explains why idempotency is pronounced like that? I've always read it as i-dem-potency

Өдрийн өмнө
KryskZ09
KryskZ09

At the point where he's talking about sending 200 messengers, and I'm thinking of a solution right now, I will see how wrong I am once I finish the video. General A sends a messenger to meet a messenger sent by General B half way to the valley, one with a letter of an estimated time and another of "Hey, here's my letter" The messengers swap messages, both now know that once they leave the 50% point they're free of danger. They make their way back to their sending General with the opposing General's note in hand. Repeat this process once the messenger arrives at their designated outpost, this time with the other General agreeing (or disagreeing) with the time. If they disagree, repeat this process. Now they have the correct schedule and a guarantee that the messenger has arrived. Edit: I guess I was incorrect, although my answer wasn't explored. I would assume that it would cause more margin of error though. I still don't understand the concept of an idempotence key, sure you're ensuring nothing if fulfilled twice, but what if it breaks to begin with? There's no way for the other side to know...

Өдрийн өмнө
Aline Fernanda
Aline Fernanda

You are so handsome hehe I like your channel! Greats from Brazil.

Өдрийн өмнө
shinvergil
shinvergil

The example was weak, imo. But good info.

Өдрийн өмнө
X
X

their is an almost guaranteed way to get it to work general A sends a message, general B continues to send a message until general A responses, if another messenger from general B arrives, General A can assume general B didnt receive the message, and send another message, once General As messenger arrived, at which point no more messages from general B will arrive, so they both attack edit: this is under the assumption that the fail rate of messengers is below 100% and their is plenty of time between attacks

Өдрийн өмнө
Mr. Pinkpig
Mr. Pinkpig

Wait couldn't one messenger for A and one messenger from B meet in the valley and give each other a set time?

Өдрийн өмнө
Tulip
Tulip

So this is how the generals communicate Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation Messenger one: we attacking at 8 General 1:cool let me sound a confirmation Messenger two: i can confirm that we are attacking at 8 General 2: alright, let me send a confirmation

Өдрийн өмнө
Killer Germ
Killer Germ

This is a shitty hypothetical, as reasonable suggestions will not be accepted.

Өдрийн өмнө
Jake Hartman
Jake Hartman

pls get patreon and premium memberships and no cemmercials thnx

Өдрийн өмнө
Z-Statistic
Z-Statistic

So the solution to the two generals problem is to send a third of your army into the dangerous valley, all of them with a message to attack at a certain time with the survivors to ally with the other general, and then assume the message got through.

Өдрийн өмнө
Hater Bart
Hater Bart

Initially, I completely misread the title.

Өдрийн өмнө
Eric Tripps
Eric Tripps

So the idempotency token solves the double send error but how does it solve the generals problem?

Өдрийн өмнө
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill

I know that this video is not about military tactics, but it would be extremely easy, I feel, to coordinate that attack.

Өдрийн өмнө
Paul Brooks
Paul Brooks

Theoretically quantum entanglement, more specifically quantum computing does in fact solve this problem. For reference, research the two slits photon phenomena.

Өдрийн өмнө
Bill Green
Bill Green

I must be missing something as I see how it stops you getting two pizzas but I don't see how it helps the generals at all.

Өдрийн өмнө
Paul Nikonowicz
Paul Nikonowicz

"idempotency". One of the sexiest words in computer science that no one really knows how to pronounce.

Өдрийн өмнө
Matthew Booth
Matthew Booth

I've always pronounced this EYE-dem-POE-tent.

Өдрийн өмнө
David Alan Gilbert
David Alan Gilbert

Now, can you do one that explains why idempotency is pronounced like that? I've always read it as i-dem-potency

Өдрийн өмнө
Arindam Nandi
Arindam Nandi

An interesting follow up would be the Byzantine general's problem - what if there were multiple generals that could back stab each other?

Өдрийн өмнө
D.N.A Travel
D.N.A Travel

Just saw at kings cross, sorry didn't say hello, was running late, love the boss

Өдрийн өмнө
d
d

I thought the title was “2 genders problem” and I came for the comments

Өдрийн өмнө
Crimson Vulpes
Crimson Vulpes

Sun Tzu says "Never attack a fortified position." but my answer for the "Two Generals problem" would be... "If you received this message, and you wish to join forces, fire a flaming arrow into the air at midnight."

Өдрийн өмнө
Schadenfreude
Schadenfreude

The solution is to use flags as long distance communication

Өдрийн өмнө
Bloodthirsty
Bloodthirsty

How about lighting the biggest fire the blue general has ever seen

Өдрийн өмнө
Patrick Armstrong
Patrick Armstrong

OMG look at all those IBM PCs!!

Өдрийн өмнө
Red Jellonian
Red Jellonian

...tcp

Өдрийн өмнө
Anikthias
Anikthias

General A: "General B, I propose to you a plan of attack. Upon receiving this message, send one of your messengers back with mine. At the midway point, yours shall turn around and return to you. An hour after both our messengers have arrived, we will commence the siege; should either messenger not return, the other must also have been spotted and destroyed." Repeat this process until the messenger of General A returns, and begin the siege.

Өдрийн өмнө
J G P
J G P

google already does for free what dashlane charges for.

Өдрийн өмнө
Mostwanted
Mostwanted

Had this with dominos, same I had the instinct to Not risk paying again..that's just silly

Өдрийн өмнө
Frank Harr
Frank Harr

O.K., so A can just keep sending a proposal until one of B's acceptance has been recieved. B assume A is serious and A assumes B is . . . well, nothing. A doesn't have to. Clever.

Өдрийн өмнө
Frank Harr
Frank Harr

True, that's got going to work either. Nothing does. I'm trying to fit this solution into the parable.

Өдрийн өмнө
HudsonA
HudsonA

It's not that B knows A is serious, but B has to know that A got its reply, both sides need to know this. What if B never gets any message and A attacks anyway?

Өдрийн өмнө
cubeincubes
cubeincubes

Huh?

Өдрийн өмнө
Dominykas Turčinavičius
Dominykas Turčinavičius

"A single human error is never the root cause" A single human error: I'm about to end this man's whole career

Өдрийн өмнө
RipleySawzen
RipleySawzen

To say this problem is unsolvable is ludicrous. The only way that happens is if the trip is somehow one-way. Otherwise, the sender can just keep sending the request till it gets a confirmation. Computers can do this literally millions of times a second, so probability dictates this eventually WILL happen 100.0000000% of the time. You can make the probability arbitrarily as high as you like. Now, if there is some significant packet loss going on somewhere, you just display the "Cannot contact server" message and send a few dozen cancellation packets just to be sure.

Өдрийн өмнө
dfasdfasdfasdf
dfasdfasdfasdf

A lot of FUD in the intro, when this problem is not affecting people in the real world hardly at all anymore.

Өдрийн өмнө
Ricky
Ricky

The great part of this episode of the basics is that it is more like 2 episodes, one about the generals problem, and one about password managers.

2 өдрийн өмнө
a z
a z

The two general's problem is nonsenical because war is never planned and structured this way. Instead the following applies: There will be ONE general and TWO commanders each commandeering one army. The general plans and sends messages to the commanders and they execute his/her commands relaying relevant feedback to the general so the general has realtime information on the state of play from the perspective of each commander. Extrapolating, you see this in IT in every large corporate as the admin (or general) sends out messages to each commander (each computer attached to the corporate network) with the computers relaying realtime statuses back to the admin. By contrast the foodordering problem is one of STRUCTURE and is analogous to the following battle structure. you are the general, you have one army and one commander but the army is fragmented into different specialisms (eg tanks, jet fighters, ground soldiers etc etc ) with each specialism controlled by a lieutenant. The structure SHOULD BE that the general commands the commander and the commander relays to each lieutenant HOWEVER some of the lieutenants are BYPASSING the commander and relaying directly to the general thereby creating INFORMATION-CONFUSION, and this is combined with the fact information lines between the general and the commander have been cut. The general thus doesn't have correct realtime information. Therefore the solution is that the lieutenants ONLY exchange information with the commander and anytime general-commander information lines are cut the commander issues a "STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING" command to every lieutenant. Extrapolating and applying this to the food ordering system, the user (general) is communicating with the app (commander), the app then communicates to each lieutenant (eg food ordering, delivery, payment etc etc) and anytime the information line between user-general and app-commander is cut the app-commander issues a "STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING" command to every lieutenant

2 өдрийн өмнө
Neodimium
Neodimium

The solution is send them information in quantum entanglement state. (-;

2 өдрийн өмнө
Wolf Slayer
Wolf Slayer

even thieves can't avoid a traceable digital fingerprint....just a logical fact.

2 өдрийн өмнө
4our 20wenty
4our 20wenty

The actual same thing happens to me

2 өдрийн өмнө
Louis Wouters
Louis Wouters

But they don't know that we know they know!

2 өдрийн өмнө
Ursula Panzer
Ursula Panzer

Just go around the castle and talk to them

2 өдрийн өмнө
Vagabond Wastrel
Vagabond Wastrel

obviously war drums or bag pipes.

2 өдрийн өмнө
The Sinful Gamer
The Sinful Gamer

That problem isn't nearly that difficult. Once A has sent B a message, B sends a message back, confirming they got that message, A then sends a confirmation that they have indeed got the message, if they get a reply to that message, they are all good, considering they both at this point understand at 8pm they would attack, both would attack.

2 өдрийн өмнө
HudsonA
HudsonA

The problem is the last message is always crucial, but only one side knows if it got through, and the receiver knows that the sender needs to know that it got through. A sends message 1, and A must find out if that message was sent. So B sends message 2 to A, to confirm the crucial message 1. Because message 2 confirms message 1, message 2 is also crucial. So B needs confirmation on message 2. Thus A sends message 3 to confirm the crucial message 2, but this makes message 3 crucial, so B sends message 4 to confirm it. But if message 3 was crucial, then B has to know that A got its confirmation, which makes message 4 crucial. So A receives message 4, which is crucial, thus it needs confirmation, so they send message 5, which is now crucial because A needs to know if B knows the crucial message 4 was confirmed. Because message 5 is now crucial, B has to send message 6 to let A know B got it, but this makes message 6 crucial. This repeats forever. Both sides know that they need confirmation, but they also know that the tentative time hasn't changed. After 100 messages each asking for confirmation on the same time, it would be safe to attack at that time without confirmation, but a computer would have to be programmed to give it a threshold over which to attack without confirmation.

Өдрийн өмнө
Matt Kazachinsky
Matt Kazachinsky

Am I the only one that got an ad for that same company?

2 өдрийн өмнө

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